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Thread: Kruger and Balogh
SandyBottomFriday, November 11, 2011, 9:57:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

I often receive emails about my Dreamcather, and the use of a smaller sail like the FEKS or PAS vs. the Balogh.   I have one of each, the FEKS is now my favorite sail on all my kayaks including my Dreamcatcher. I’ve used the Dreamcatcher in 3 ECs (one was the 1st stage of the 2006 UFC), twice with the PAS, and once with the Balogh Sail and PAS.    I love paddling my Kruger, and love the advantage of the smaller sails.  I did not like sailing the Kruger with the larger rig, I wanted it to be a sailboat and it's not.  I didn’t like the extra weight, gear, or complexity, and I absolutely hated it when the winds weren’t right, which always seemed was the norm.

I’d love to have other’s weigh in on their thoughts about doing and EC with the Balogh rig, and especially in a Kruger.  Many of you do, it’s a great sail rig (one I plan to keep and use), but there are always the pros and cons.   What has been your experience?

Dawn

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Comments:
Thread: Kruger and Balogh
spidennisFEKS
Friday, November 11, 2011, 1:20:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
I'd like to hear, see, and know more about the FEKS!  It's your now new favorite you say?  And one that's had experience with several different types your thoughts on the subject would carry some weight so ........

and like you, I don't want to turn my paddle craft into a sailboat, I just want a lightweight, easy to use, extra mode for when the conditions are right and I could use a breather for a bit. 

In the UFC DVD I was listening to what Alaskan SeaHorse was saying after he dropped out.  He was sailing in conditions that I would have thought and I would have been in a purely paddle mode.  Working a sail in those conditions was just too much work from what he was saying, so why do it?  Certainly not in a kayak.  

KISS!  I've heard it before, been there before.  The less there is the less to go wrong!  Can the FEKS deliver ?
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noseeumWhat's the word on the new one meter BSD?
Friday, November 11, 2011, 2:09:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

I can't contribute to this subject but am none-the-less very interested in Dave's relatively new one meter BSD sail.  My understanding is that it is attached to the standard BOSS stabilizing system and mast (less several sections of course).  Per Dave, "You do not need to use your outriggers if you use common sense and your kayak is not tippy.  The Seawind is not tippy.  To go upwind you will have to use a leeboard."   The one meter has its own wingbone.  To ice the cake, the wingbone & sail seem to be reasonably priced @ $250. 

Does anybody have experience with this new one meter BSD?  If so, it would be an oversight not to include it in this discussion.  

Noseeum 

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SandyBottomFEKS
Friday, November 11, 2011, 2:30:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

For me the FEKS definitely delivers, and I’ve set up all my boats for it.    

Since most are familiar with the PAS, it's looks and operation, I’ll describe by comparing the FEKS to the PAS. Both are excellent kayak sails, and of high quality.  And I would recommend either as a kayak sail. I’ve been very lucky to have been sponsored by both at different times.  That said, my opinions have nothing to do with sponsorship, and I’ve tried to be very honest about my comparisons below, they are different. 

After understanding the FEKS setup, many will probably consider the PAS simpler, and easier, but it’s all relative.  I recall agonizing about where to mount my PAS, and how to keep my deck from imploding.  I too agonized a bit with the FEKS setup. 

The FEKS mast is attached very simply to a small “thingy J” (I don't know what it's called, but is very easy to use and to attach and detache the mast) that is mounted on the deck, at about the same location near the bow that the PAS mounts.  The FEKS requires side stays (lines) going from the mast under the sail to the sides of the hull (your PAS is also attached at the sides of the hull), the PAS requires hardware for this, and many with FEKS just use existing deck line hardware (I added hardware on side of hull).   

Both sails have potential to implode the deck of your kayak.  On my PAS I had to create a cradle using an old back band that went across the deck that the mast sat on.  For the FEKS, I decided to add a small piece of fiberglass and epoxy coat under the deck where it’s mounted to give it more stiffness.

The FEKS requires an up haul to bring the mast up, a line that is attached to the mast, goes to the bow of boat to a block, and back to front of cockpit where cleated off (very easy to use).  The PAS uses a bungee system such that once the masts are set free off the deck, they bungee up in place. 

When down, both PAS and FEKS masts are contained under bungees on the deck.  However I’ve found the FEKS mast is longer and runs alongside my cockpit, not really a problem, but I also tie up the rolled up sheet as well as running under bungee.  The PAS you just roll up and place under bungee.  With the additional tie up on my FEKS I rarely get the sail full of water, often with PAS my sail fills with water on the deck while paddling in rougher conditions.

The FEKS sheet controlling the sail runs from the boom to a block on deck and to the front of cockpit where cleated off.  Its one sheet and works like any sail on a sailboat.  The PAS also works with 2 cleats on either side of cockpit (though it comes with some flimsy plastic things that supposedly do the same); these control the angle of the PAS sail working against each other. 

I also chose to mount a short downhaul from the mast running under a bungee in front of me, this because as I was learning in very high winds behind me, if it got dicey, I’d think PAS and want to bring down that mast fast, but sometimes the wind would hold it up.   It didn’t take long to adjust and learn what is really one of the best safety features for me of the FEKS, when it gets a bit scary, just release the sheet (DUH!), just like in any sailboat.

Although some dispute this, I’ve always thought both PAS and FEKS were more than just down wind sails.   I’m partial to the FEKS because I

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SandyBottomFEKS Part2
Friday, November 11, 2011, 2:33:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Although some dispute this, I’ve always thought both PAS and FEKS were more than just down wind sails.   I’m partial to the FEKS because I find it easy to adjust the angle of sail, and I believe I get more angles of sail with it.   Some of this I think is because the PAS ability to get more angles is related to how tightly you have the 2 masts set, if too tight, you can’t get the masts rotated well enough to take advantage of higher angles.  When I’ve paddled with many using a PAS, their sails always seem to get put away before mine when the winds turn into us.   That said, I think that there is little difference among those few PAS owners I know with very real sailing experience who seem more able to get the most out of the PAS and the differences then seem to fade.   The FEKS is just so easy for me to adjust the sail the way I want it, and in a big gust or feeling off balance releasing the sheet spills all the wind without any stability issues (not always true when needing to take a PAS down in too high winds).

The PAS is a symmetrical V, any original thoughts I had that the FEKS would have me more off-balance filling with wind on one side of the mast in a strong beam wind have not been realized.  I’ve really not noticed any difference in stability between the two, and actually in fact, the ability to release the sheet has allowed me to sail in much higher winds than I might have been comfortable in.

I know Balogh has a new 1 meter sail.  I’m not familiar with it at all, nor have I seen it.  They also make good quality sails.

The only other thing I can add is a little silly.  I’ll be sailing in the UFC in March with SOS on a high performance Trimaran he is designing and building.  So part of my mental training is to think sailor rather than paddler, and Alan reminds me to think racer not challengerJ.   Both the FEKS and PAS are what I consider motor sails, most of the time you are paddling with them deployed, they just either help you go faster, or help you take it easier at same speed.  But…. the shape and set up of the FEKS seems more like a real main sail to me, and kind of makes me think I’m more a sailor.  I’m kind of liking that right now This forum is closed and archive only - go to new forum
KiwiBirdBSD one meter
Friday, November 11, 2011, 2:39:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
See photo at:  http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/1Meter.html

The mast sits on the deck.

KB
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kapakahiSimple sails
Friday, November 11, 2011, 2:55:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Keeping it simple; Cooke Custom Tarp sail as a spinnaker; versitle off the wind sailing folded it is 50 sq ft. center line is a retrieval line right to a chute bag sets and drops in 6 seconds.


The under rated traditional canoe sail by Balogh; rolled up on a sailboard mast with line sail hoops; This is a GREAT sail does not loose shape under load (no crinkle at the clew); Optional roller reef; the boom is a hazard and tough to deal with on the water in a canoe. - we found the boom is unnecessary in conjunction with a PAS or Spinnaker option as we rolled it. Sailed outstanding to the wind with out the boom.


Balogh 36 race with 1 meter PAS - A dream combination


Balogh 36 traditional canoe sail with Tarp Spinnaker - freakish fast for a canoe

Thought I'd share these simple sail set ups I've used.

Kap
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PaddlePeddler1 meter BSD
Saturday, November 12, 2011, 11:33:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
I'm planning on using the 1 meter BSD sail on my maiden voyage in the Sea Wind.  I'll let you know how it goes.  I do know that I did not like it in a kayak.  Too much going on.  I'm a paddler and like things simpler than that.  It works really well and points much higher into the wind than a PAS but it's too much to deal with on the water from the cockpit of a kayak.  I feel I will like it much better in the Kruger.  To be continued.
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TwinSpiritPAS set up with a Cuben Fibre sail
Saturday, November 12, 2011, 12:11:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

I do agree with much of what Sandybottom had to say about the PAS vs FEK sail . I had the pleasure of being along side if not behind her for all of the NCC this year. Since I have never owned a FEKs sail and the PAS is my first sail I did watch both sails to see there strong and weak points. So IMHO the PAS was faster to raise and lower. The FEKs was able to stay up longer due to the fact that it was able to trail a head wind with out much resistance. That I did like about it. As to the speed and reach of the sails. I didnt see much diferance. Both sails were able to tack or beat to the wind ,but with much slipage and no center board it didnt help much, it was easier to put them down and paddle. The FEKS is made of what I call a real sail cloth material .The PAS is made of a rib stop nylon, this I found to stretch after 2 days of winds at 10 MPH  plus. and on a reach it lost it ablity to hold its shape. This might not have been a big deal but it just bothered me.

When I got home ,I wrote PAS and asked if they had plans to us an alternate Material . I also asked, if they didnt have plans to do so would they mind if I did using their set up. They responded saying they didnt and it was fine if I wanted to do that. I started looking around and asking lots of questions and came up with Cuben Fibre. I have made the sail,as of right now it is assembled with a special tape for this purpose.I will have it sewed before it gets put to use. The link shows pictures of the sail. It is un-tested as of now ,I will let you know how it goes.

https://picasaweb.google.com/105922062907389401906/CubenFibreSail?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCLKuk6rR7v76mwE&feat=directlink

Twinspirit

 

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DanitoThanks for sharing
Saturday, November 12, 2011, 5:47:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
Sandybottom- Thank you for sharing your experience with the new FEKS. I was amazed on how well it performed during this past NCC. I left the Beaufort checkpoint a few minutes after Macatawa,passaicpaddler,twinspirit and yourself (i know im forgetting someone else in that group please forgive me I cant remember the name) and I was most certainly out sailed by the FEKS; you guys were always with in sight but could not get close enough to say I sailed along side of you. Im considering adding a FEKS to my Sea Wind when it comes in.

Again Thanks for sharing,

Danny
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Feksthe new flat earth sails
Saturday, November 12, 2011, 11:19:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Hi all, Im realy incuraged by the coments! as of last week Iv finalised the new 1mtr rig, with the imput from sandy and a cupal of expodition paddlers from hear in Australia im happy with what iv got to offer, ther will be a small shipment being prepeard to be sent over th flat earth sails North America over the next cupal of weeks,if your interested get in contact and we can ear mark a sail for you . ther being made out of the new tri-laminate , its a fare beter fabrick than the high end poliester cloth I have been yousing, its a thiner calaper, stifer and more dimentionaly stabel. with this new fabric I can now design a sail with a beter shape, Iv lost about 4deg up wind, but with the slipage you get with a kayak im not consernd as it sails best on a down wind run or my favorit a brord reach . iv remooved about 6deg of twist from the sail which give it a beter range when your seting the sail (that means you wont need to fidel with the trim as much ) its still on the pop up mast system which made them so popular for expoditioners from Australia .

thers a lot of mention of lee bords and sponsons, flat earth sails wont be making sail rigs with them , thay make the rigs to heavy, and make them a bit dangerous in the surf zone .

the filosoph of flat earth will always be, keep it simpal, I have a sea kayak that will sail, not a sailing boat that I can Paddel !

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Fekssumthing I forget !
Saturday, November 12, 2011, 11:23:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

I forgot to mention, if your after a sail larger than 1metr , and a sail kit thats more permanent , look at Mad Daves sails , im convinced ther well made and will last the test of time !

and sumthing thats well enganeard with leebords look at kayak sailor

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Feksexpodition paddeling Australian stile
Sunday, November 13, 2011, 4:29:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

http://vimeo.com/27966443

this is  a vidio of the new stile of expodition paddeling , yousing fast sea kayaks like the Rockpool Taran , teamed up with sails,  no leebords or outrigers to keep them light and manuvarabel, abel to handel surf landings, and cuver long distances faster than trditional sea kayaks .

 

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BeastOarmanPAS Rowing
Sunday, November 13, 2011, 8:05:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Well, I spent the early afternoon hooking a PAS up to my rowing shell.  Like Chief said, between 3 and 4 hours.  Then jumped out into 10-15 SSW, 1-2 foot swells in Long Island Sound, what a blast!  Rowed upwind, sailed down, rowed up, rowed down with the sail pushing (pulling?).  Can't wait to try it in the EC!  Of course I don't recall a time last year when I was not going straight upwind, but never mind that.  It's good to have options, if nothing else just to break the monotony.  The tandem kayak rudder I added, steered by hand with deck lines through jam cleats, worked awesome for the task.  That also helps just rowing, improving tracking through the swells, although it can bury the stern a lot. Now to start weighing all my gear and get it down from the 100 pounds plus I had last year!

 

aka Peter

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ScaremanPAS - Great Clothes Line
Sunday, November 13, 2011, 9:18:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

One benefit of the PAS...At camp, a fully deployed PAS can become a great clothes line to both air out and start drying your gear.  Keep a ziploc bag of clothespins handy in your Sacrosanct bag just for this occasion and you can avoid paddling back in either fig leaves or palm fronds.

Scareman

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kapakahiMatt Layden - no fuss, no muss
Monday, November 14, 2011, 7:08:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:


Matt (Wizard) comes up with a no fuss no muss answer to the 1 meter canoe kayak sail rig. When talking with the Wizard, please ignore the man behind the bush.
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whitecapsOk.
Monday, November 14, 2011, 10:32:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Blogh and PA for me all the way. Dreamcatcher Seawind or Crusier. Been there done that this is my choice. Also seen the ccs tarp on the war canoe fly was cool and helped a lot.

I have no plans of rplaceing simple PA or my Balogh. both are KISS.

toby 

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maddave440Compare and enjoy.
Thursday, November 17, 2011, 11:50:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

HI  Watertribe,

The Watertribe should have options. Some like to sail and there are so many choices. I would never condemn a person who chose another product other than a BSD for what ever the reason. Some people are happy using an umbrella to sail with. Who am I to judge them. What ever choice you make, make sure it is an informed decision. Watertribe deserves the best gear. Be aware that BSD makes a large variety of sail sizes - the 1 meter, 12 sq ft, 18 sq. ft., 24,sq ft., 28 sq, ft,. 32 sq ft.,38 sq. ft. and the 5 meter. The 1 meter has yet to enter a Watertribe event. I hope that will change in the future so that its performance will be based on facts. 32 Batwing- 5 meter Batwing has a proven track history. The 5 meter has only been in one race. I will be in Tampa after Thanksgiving filming and testing gear. If you are interrested in testing gear or just drinking coffee by the water. Call me at 646-269-0587 and set up a day to hang out by the water. I will post location and the days I will be there.

                                       Maddave

 

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PaddlePeddler1 meter BSD
Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 10:15:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
The 1 meter BSD sail rocks on the Kruger and points very high when you are paddling too.  I'll put together a photo wright up when I get a chance.
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noseeumquestions for PaddlePeddler about 1M BSD
Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 11:35:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Hey PaddePeddler,

Am I correct in assuming that you were not using your outriggers when using the 1 meter BSD on your Kruger?  Overall, how was the stability?  Did you encounter any unexpected gusts that required a quick reaction (or else) on your part?   Did you use your leeboard when  sailing and paddling upwind?  Thanks, Noseeum

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PaddlePeddler1 meter BSD
Wednesday, November 23, 2011, 5:36:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
Noseeum,

That is correct.  I am shooting for a class 1 rig, no ammas or leeboard.  Sunday afternoon(my first time in the boat) the wind was maybe 10-15 and we were going across the wind towards Pavilion Key.  There were a few gusts higher especially at the bays and I never felt even a little unstable.  I sailed up wind some (maybe 25-30 deg. off)  and as long as I was paddling made very good time.  I have a couple of people interested in this subject and I'll post my findings here next week after a little more experimenting this weekend.  Paddle on!(sail assisted of course)
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Expandacraftquestion
Thursday, November 24, 2011, 11:45:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
Hi Dawn,
 I keep hearing about the Kruger and I'm experimenting with all sorts of canoes and kayaks to fit my Expandacraft hulls to as an outrigger. What's so great about the Kruger? 
Wesley
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