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Thread: which Kruger?
RyderSunday, August 22, 2010, 9:13:00 PM
Category: Boats  Keyword: kruger

I'm going over the pros and cons of each of the two Kruger boats I am considering purchasing- Dreamcatcher or Seawind.  I realize it's going to be up to me to make the decision, but would be interested in hearing the opinions of others who own and use these boats.

I paddle a lot on the Chesapeake Bay, and the North Carolina Sounds.  Also about 1/4 to 1/2 of my time is on tidal rivers on the east coast.

I anticipate sleeping in the boat a couple of times a year - realizing that the sleeping in the Seawind is going to be better than in the Dreamcatcher.  I've laid out in the Dreamcatcther, which would work, but am wonderin how condensation is and hot summer nights.  So I'm thinking for boat sleeping, the Seawind is better.

On the other hand, I'm wondering how the seaworthiness changes between the two - am I going to end up with a boatful of water or very wet in the Seawind when paddling small craft advisories in the bay, as opposed to being drier and safer in the Dreamcatcher?

How effective is the skirt on the Seawind?

Any thoughts and comments appreciated.

 

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Comments:
Thread: which Kruger?
TurtleWhispererSeaWind
Tuesday, August 24, 2010, 6:16:00 PM
Category: Boats  Keyword:

I am no expert as far as Krugers go, but since no one has chimed in I thought I would put in my 1/2 cent.

I recently received my new SeaWind and have had it out a few times in 15-25kts of wind with a Balough sail rig. I did take some waves over the bow and forward quarter because I was testing how close to the wind I could push her. The spray deck Mark sells does an outstanding job of keeping water out. Like any spray deck, you will get water in the boat but not so much that it is unmanageable. Normally, you stay pretty dry in a Kruger.

I personally would not want to paddle my SeaWind during a small craft advisory because I feel more at home paddling a seakayak in those conditions, however the sailing would be great.

You should call Mark at Kruger Canoes. He won't steer you wrong.

TW

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kapakahithe boys
Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 6:25:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Mark has not responded as he is participating in the MR340.  There is a Loon, Monarch, Dreamcatcher, Sea Wind in the event.

Kap

http://www.krugercanoes.blogspot.com

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whitecapsBoth
Sunday, August 29, 2010, 10:46:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Look at this way. A regular depth SeaWind has already proven itself in tough weather conditions.

 

You are on the water and there are many ways to prevent becoming wet while moving.

 

As far as sleeping in theses boats. Only in races or doing long trips with sections without being able to land on flat ground for me. In these cases I am too tired to worry about condensation.

 

When waves are big enough to break on top of your boat you will get wet below the skirt just from the hydraulics or not having a jacket that is split to cover the top of the skirt properly. As of yet I have not needed to pump I only use micro fleece rags instead of a sponge. I also wear rain pants in chilly weather.

 

I know for a fact you can carry 25 days of food and gear in Michigan in April and can endure a pretty good storm front in Flordia off shore in a SeaWind.

 

A Dreamcatcher is heavier (damm near as much as a Crusier) and not as easy or quick to remove your gear from. Plus you can not pack really big bags in it. You will also find it quite a bit harder to lie down in when going under low bridges or trees across rivers.

 

I am pro regular depth SeaWind for an over all go anywhere Kruger.

 

Chief and Manitou ran Dreamcatchers as a team in an EC. Sandybottom has done a UFC in a Dreamcatcher. Waimanu just completed an MR340 in a Dreamcatcher.  Both boats are proven and both have the same bottom. only the tops are different.

 

With all that said upcoming Daddy (whoops) Mark is building me a deep dish Dreamcatcher. This will be my go to boat for a few adventures I want to do. (no my Seawind is not for sale.)

 

The two prettiest Dreamcatchers are owned by one damm yankee and a Kilt wearing Canadian, evil Snore and crazy Waimanu. Both boats are awesome to look at.      

 

These are only opinions based in my limited world.

 

toby   

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whitecapsDreamcatcher
Sunday, August 29, 2010, 11:43:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

I have no idea why the small letters. Also Snore has completed a UFC in a Dreamcatcher.

This should be a new topic but I am lazy tonight. sorry!

All the Krugers completed the MR340 as did all the Watertribers. (what else would you expect.) three watertribers were in the top ten in the mens solo. (I got whipped again, at least the Capt of dark thirty and Super Boo were not there to take a picture of my defeat.) Women solo and quite a few men (me included) better be afraid of this new Chick.   Check out DolpinGals time in the MR340 and this years WaterTribe Ultra.

toby

 

 

 

 

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SnoreBringGatorDreamcatcher Vs SeaWind
Monday, August 30, 2010, 8:03:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Ryder,

Toby has provided some great insight.  I agree that the times I have slept in my Dreamcatcher it was more like passing out- from exhaustion.  During the "winter" in Florida the size of a Kruger is a slight problem, the huge cockpit is too much room for my body to heat up.  So invariably I wrap my legs in an old-style space blanket- shiny side in.  This keeps me comfy and at night I slide it up my back under my jacket for a decent nap.   

While the Dreamcatcher is more challenging to pack because of the enclosed cockpit, it offers better security from racoons.  The aft hatch on my boat is absolutly critterproof.  The cockpit cover is as good as any I have had on my kayaks.  The vastness of a Dreamcatcher means that when you load bags into the bow or stern, it is prudent to tie some parachute cord to them so you can get them easier.  Perhaps it was growing up in Da Bronx watching all those Italian bakers and pizza-makers, but when I cannot get something out of the bow or stern I use me ZRE paddle like a long handled spatula and it scoop the bag out.

Assuming no storms in the S FLA viscinty, I will be at the NC event mid-day Thursday with my deep Dreamcatcher (day job obligations).  If I am there, you are welcome to try out Persistence on Thursday. Or if I get in early, on Saturday afternoon.

 

Snore

A/K/A "Evil" SnoreBringGator

A/K/A Damn Yankee

Dang- Good thing Toby likes me.... I thought he liked me...

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whitecapsCoon proof
Wednesday, September 01, 2010, 5:31:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Camping with Snore and seeing his set up and not worriyng about critters is another reason I want a Dreamcatcher also. Both boats will work you just have to adjust to each one. 

Hope to see you in N.C. Bill.

toby    

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WAIMANUD/C or S/W
Wednesday, September 01, 2010, 5:23:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

When I started searching for a Kruger, River John had pretty well channelled me into a Sea Wind, however the first real chance I had of picking up a "used" boat turned out to be a DreamCatcher ("deepdish" in Tobi-ism) in the Lake Ontario vicinity  ...nary a scratch on it- literally! 

Paddling the Great Lakes and especially  Georgian Bay, the North Channel and Superior I really feel that the D/C is the way to go  ...also do a lot of shoulder season paddling and dependent on the temps (read; if the Toronto harbour and areas are not iced in) have paddled throughout the winter  ...the decking really warms up the cockpit area with the squirt on and I layer over and under a farmer john rather than a drysuit  ...use a floatation bag to fill the bow in case of capsize so that cuts down on area to warm 

Sandy Bottom / Dawn put me onto the Kokatat storm crag that will fit around the D/C coambing so very seldom do I carry/wear a squirt during the warm summer months

I have the regular kayak rubber rear hatch cover and it has a very tight fit and no racoon problems  ...their larger cousin the bear could get in if it so desired but I am very careful about leaving food odors on the exterior of the boat (do store food in baggies then dry bags in the rear hatch) and will often throw some water over the hatch area then leave a few pots/pans or noisey things on the hatch cover, should the critters get too curious

Have also learned to edge the boat a bit to reduce the water line and avoid paddle shaft and gunnel rubbing  ...this required a bit of padding in the coambing/seat hanger area  ...installed a Snap Dragon kayak back band about 1 1/2 inches above the seat (in the mid position) and gives fantastic support ...nary a back pain throughout the MR340 and only two Ibubrofun before bed each night!  ...who says it's a race!??

My only negative point would be the additinal weight  ...had a small trailor made last winter with a couple of "U" racks that carry a Thule roof box, so everything is all in the garage in one ready-to-go unit  ...problem solved and in a few minutes ; voila` box on car roof and room for one or two more boats on the trailor  ...always forget to ask Mark if decking could be made from just Kevlar (it may be, but I doubt it) and would there be a sufficient weight saving 

I'm happy with the DreamCatcher and feel that for my requirements it is good solution and having a background of both canoe and kayak, it's a good fit

So at today's closing the exchange rate, and ...... that's my 1.88 cents worth

Bill / Waimanu

 

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whitecapsDreamcatcher
Wednesday, September 01, 2010, 7:05:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Anyone want to see a class act Dreamcatcher get Bill to send pic. from the slanted refelction tape to the AV FUEL ONLY decals. The foam work for holding jars and super speed mixtures is a work of art right down to his watch mount. TWS boys have nothing on this Kilt wearing sex toy.  

Any one thinking of a color top deck get Snore to show you his with Sails. Both are top of the line.  

A + one ground crew and a blast to talk to. (Not Waimanu but his crew.) 

Above the border people are cool. They have given me a place to sleep and a lot more.

Give me some time an I will figure out how to pick on them. (This is going to be harder than the Civil war.) As all the people I have been exposed to in this new world 1st class.

toby 

 

 

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RyderSea Wind hull #217
Sunday, October 03, 2010, 8:25:00 PM
Category: Boats  Keyword:

Thank you to everyone for your comments and suggestions.  Today I  became the second owner of Sea Wind hull #217.  Now to outfit it and learn how to use it!  It came with the storage cockpit cover, spraydeck (including two mouse chewn holes), and the connector pole.  The original owner also added a backband to the seat system. 

On the agenda for things to figure out this week:

1.  Finding floatation bags for fore and aft for when I swamp it.

2.  Loosening up the rudder bolt - doesn't go down as freely as I would like.

I am really looking forward to paddling this boat!

 

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whitecapsseawind
Monday, October 04, 2010, 8:22:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Congratulations on a top of the line boat!

 

The rudder is easily adjusted. Some of us remove it when hauling the boat for many miles. This cuts down on the wear at the pivot hole. Mine travels thousands of miles a year.

 

Why the flotation bags?

 

I have turned mine over several times practicing self rescue. The foam flotation poured in the bow and stern is enough to float it.

 

 I have also been knocked upside down in a river at night by a sweeper with full gear and had no problems with recovery. My Seawind floated well with all the gear and was actually easier to bail out as there was less volume for the water.

 

In rough water or off shore even in calm conditions use your skirt. Make certain all snaps are snapped.

 

In a Seawind either build or purchase extra bows for the rear behind the seat to give the skirt some way to keep water from filling it. Set it up in the yard and pour the water on with a garden hose and you will see what I mean. I use my camping gear stacked to create a dome in the back.

 

Before leaving shore especially on shell lined beaches work your rudder blade up and down by hand to remove shells that jam it before venturing into a surf.

 

Remove the bolt that holds the rudder cable at the slider and coat it with neversieze or marine grease. (Stainless bolt and alu. slider do not mix in salt water.) while you are doing this put a heat shrink on the cable while you have it apart and secure the end around both the standing end and the bitter end. (Makes a nice loop with no frayed cables to poke holes in baggies or hands.

 

These boats do not steer very well using the hut method. They like their rudders. Carry a spare set of cables. You can use one of the bungies at the back to pull on the same side as a broken cable if you have to by hooking it to the same place as your cable goes to. Your foot will get tiered.

 

These boats are heavy so put a line from the bow eye with a 4in pvc handle on a length of line to drag them with. Ours are just long enough to store under the bow most bungie while attached to the bow eye.. Kayak handles on rope at bow and stern make toting them with help a lot easier.

 

Double secure spare paddles in small craft warnings. They will ash overboard without you knowing it.

 

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whitecapsseawind
Monday, October 04, 2010, 8:34:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Buy at least two ZRE bent shaft paddles. Wider blades do not make you go faster they just tire you quicker. Pro ZAV are light they also break easy. A medium or extreme is perfect for shallow waters in Florida or northern rivers. Do sand the edges when they get chipped. On race day spray the blades with clear coat to make everyone think you have new paddles.

 

Be a believer in 303 protectent for the kevlar.

 

Get a sharks tooth. You will never forget this one it is life altering.

 

Always remember we are all Brothers and Sisters in this family. Fight if you must but stay friends and forgive and forget.

 

 

 

toby       

       

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RidgerunnerLifting your Skirt
Monday, October 04, 2010, 8:37:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
After paddling into the wind for the whole NCUM with waves occasionally breaking over the bow, I think the spray skirt is OK.  The hoops in the back make sense, and I am going to sew a diagonal "suspender" to keep the tube high on my body in a blow.

Long range plans also call for a tent and mosquito netting to protect the boy sleeping in the cockpit.
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GoneCrazyAnother rudder question
Thursday, October 07, 2010, 8:07:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
Toby,

I don't mean to be redundant with another rudder question but I'm curious as to your take on Kruger rudders for sailing and paddling.  I've studied some of the photographs from different Tribe and Kruger events to get an idea of which rudders are being used when these boats are sailed with BSD rigs or PAS rigs.  Do you use the same rudder when you paddle as you do when you sail with your BSD rig?  Do you have another blade that you can switch out depending on if your sailing or just paddling.  Is there a blade shape/design that you prefer.  I have talked to Chief about his foil rudder and I've read the articles on the Tribe magazine so I have some back ground.  I'm just curious about your experience with the Kruger canoes.

Thanks,

Bill


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SnoreBringGatormy $0.02
Thursday, October 07, 2010, 9:02:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Just an AMEN to Toby's post and another suggestion.  During my Trail of Broken Gear aka the UFC.  I broke a lightweight ZRE- when I got done I had a new medium weight blade installed.  The mediums are a tad heavier, but are harder to break.

Whatever rudder you use, install a good downhaul.  I did not have one and had to replace the cables at Sebastian Inlet. At that time I put a 4-5 mph max speed on all my sailing and used the small "comma" rudder.   I finished the UFC on the backup set of cables.  But on the first paddle afterwards the replacement cable broke.   I now have what I feel is a robust downhaul system.  Mark and others have gone many, many miles without breaking that many cables- but most do not paddle exclusively in salt water.

Bill

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GoneCrazyDown haul?
Thursday, October 07, 2010, 11:28:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
Snore,

The Kruger boats commonly use gravity to bring the rudder down.  Is this down haul your talking about a common modification amongst Kruger paddlers?  How is is set up?  Am I understanding you correctly?  One way or the other, thanks for your two cents.  I'll take the rest of the dollar if you can spare the change.

Bill
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whitecapsDown haul
Friday, October 08, 2010, 10:16:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

I defiantly am not a sailor. I use a bigger rudder that Etchemin gave me when I sail. I still have not rigged up a downhaul. I really do not sail my Seawind very much.

 

Mark uses a rudder shaped just like the original only bigger with a downhaul.

 

The problem with going without a downhaul is your rudder will float up and you will be putting a lot of pressure on your system. I would suggest going with a downhaul with some bungi cord in the system.

 

I am way out of my league here but a simple downhaul is done by drilling a hole on the leading edge of the rudder 5 or so in. from the pivot. Run a line from the rudder thru a pad eye on top of the stern then a short piece of shock cord then line to a cleat like your up haul. This is just an example find someone that knows what they are doing to get it right.

 

The rudder setup that Ridgerunner has is a newer version of the one Chief uses. These are geared more to sailing and I like Ridgerunners a lot. I have no idea what to ask for from the people that made this but would like to know for my next boat.

 

toby   

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RidgerunnerWaterTribe Rudder
Friday, October 08, 2010, 3:09:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
Toby ascribes to me virtues that I do not have.  In another post he mentioned the 2004 win, but that was due to Greybeard's and Chef Ramen's engineering and design, the Kruger's ruggedness and seaworthiness, and Greybeard's skill in the big wind and waves.  I was just dumb muscle and moveable ballast.

The rudder design he mentions is Wizard's and is discussed in Chief's magazine article.  The rudder is manufactured by Phil's Foils and is expensive.  They have updated the quadrant, but all else is the same.


The rudder is balanced (it has considerable area forward of the pivot, giving a more neutral helm.  It is also "faired," meaning that it is shaped like an airplane or bird's wing.  A flat rudder will stall early as you try to turn or paddle/sail into a quartering sea or tide.  Then it is slowing you down and controlling your boat by slowing down one side.  A foil will give lift.  Finally, the Balogh leeboards are right at the mast and forward of the center of effort of the sail.  The lateral resistance (sum of the leeboard and rudder and boat shape) should be right below the sail's center of effort.  The bigget rudder helps some in this.  I'm not a naval architect, so I hope Wizard will correct my errors.

You have to take off the Kruger "J" rudder and its mount.  I then filled the holes with a thickened epoxy.  Next, I mounted the pintiles, the upward-facing pins that the rudder assembly rotates on (available from Phils Foils and many marine supply companies).  This must be done very carefully to assure proper spacing and vertical orientation.

The rudder quadrant (the piece that holds the rudder and provides the "wings" for the attachment of the control cables) fits down on the pintiles and is secured with a split ring from coming off inadvertently.  The new carbon fiber one in the Phil's Foils is an update from the one in Chief's article.

Now, the pivot pin (I used a stainless steel bolt with a stainless nylon nut) can be used to attach the rudder, and uphauls and downhauls attached.  This rudder will float straight out behind the boat, and needs the downhaul.  I also added plywood "cheeks to the Kruger rudder and still use it to paddle lakes and creeks.
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RidgerunnerPhils Foils Picture
Friday, October 08, 2010, 3:11:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
I failed with the link to the picture of the rudder and quadrant.  it is at

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GoneCrazyIs there a compromise?
Friday, October 08, 2010, 5:00:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
First of all thank you for your comments. 

Now, considering that the composite rudder is expensive and some what complex to install.  Are some folks getting some reasonable level of performance from aluminum rudders of different shapes that can be installed more easily into the Kruger rudder system that already exists.  For example, I saw a picture of a sea wind on the beach (bsd rigged) with what looked like an over sized comma rudder.  Another seawind had what looked like an aluminum rudder with a knife blade shape.  Any thoughts here?  Also, are there any pictures of modified Kruger rudders out there? 

Thanks,

Bill
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Ridgerunnerbeefed-up rudder
Friday, October 08, 2010, 5:34:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
http://watertribe.com/Magazine/Y2004/M08/DougCameron.aspx
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MishigamaGreat story
Friday, October 08, 2010, 6:45:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
I am interested in the rudder talk too!  But, Doug, your description of your win in 2004 was inspiring.  It makes me wish that I could go to Florida in March.  I hope that the NCC adds a longer course for us "winter challenged" folks.

I looked at the Phil's Foils rudder and figure that could run about $600+.  Seems like this could be done a bit less expensive with 80% efficiency at 20% of the cost.  Unfortunately, that isn't my forte.  I will have to lean on better engineers than I.
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SnoreBringGatorStan's Rudder
Friday, October 08, 2010, 7:14:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

I too have one of Stan's large aluminum rudders.  The choice to use this design was as much asthetics as finanical. 

The design the downhaul design that Toby discussed works well and is similiar to the one I now have.  However,  I ran single line for the uphaul to the cleat and back to the rudder (with some bungee) to the leading edge of the rudder for a downhaul.  I am also playing with a pop-up cleat from Duckworks that is designed to release when there is too much stress.

During the UFC the run from Key Largo to Miami was intense (see video) and I was using the big rudder.  When I could look back at the rudder, it was floating perpendicular to its proper position. That was a key factor in deciding to finish cross Biscayne Bay with just a PAS.  The lack of a good down haul surely was a factor in the cable failure.

Some swear that using a stock rudder and j-strokes works just as well, but I do not see how that would be sustainable on a very long run.  There is just too much going on to try to paddle on top of handling the main sheet and reading the upcoming waves to keep stress off the akas.

Bill

 

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GoneCrazyStan's Rudder?
Friday, October 08, 2010, 8:08:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
This is very helpful.  Can someone tell me about Stan's rudder and how I might acquire one, what basic shape etc?  Is he still making them?  Can I use the standard Kruger rudder and just change the blade and adapt a down haul system?  Thanks
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EtcheminRudder
Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 4:19:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

I haven't been here for a while and I see someone ratted on my rudder.  An engineer friend of mine designed a strong aluminum balanced rudder for sailing.  It is an inexpensive way to provide all the steerage I needed for sailing the Sea Wind with a Baylogh BOSS.  They are not as good as the ones Chief had designed and made for his Dreamcatcher but they have done me and others very well in numerous EC's and UFC's.  If you abuse them they will bend but heck anything will break if abused.  But with these you can bend them back into their approximate shape and keep going.  I have a few left that you will have to drill the holes to fit your needs.  Two for those wanting a downhaul and one if you dont.  Email me off line.  All you have to do is pay for shipping if you are a Watertriber.  If not we can discuss price.  It will be cheap!!  Ask Whitecaps, Kapahaki and Snore.  If I run out of them I'll provide the plans for free and you can make them out of whatever suits you.  The ones I have left were water cut.

Etch 

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GoneCrazyemail
Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 11:04:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
Etch,

The e-mail list under member services is not working.  I e-mailed chief to let him know.  If you want just e-mail me at williamwynnmorgan@yahoo.com.  I would love to talk about those rudders.  THANKS! 
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