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Thread: Superior/Sawyer Expedition Canoe?
GoneCrazySunday, February 14, 2010, 8:45:00 PM
Category: Boats  Keyword:
I know that so many tribe members are loyal Kruger paddlers so I wanted to know what the opinion/concensus is on Scott Smith's Superior Expedition Canoe model.  There is one article/review on this boat floating around on about four different web sites.  Otherwise there is really no first hand information out there on this boat.  I sent Superior an e-mail but I haven't heard back (it was only a couple of days ago).  When I get a response I will post information here if anyone else is interested.  Thanks.
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Thread: Superior/Sawyer Expedition Canoe?
ChiefLooks Like
Monday, February 15, 2010, 7:15:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
This looks like a Kruger Sea Wind. I hope they are paying a license fee.
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FrayedKnotSuperior Expedition Canoe
Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 7:02:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
I could only find the review you you mention.  But I did find a couple of reviews on the Sawyer canoes that are apparently being built by Superior.  Those reviews were positive.  I was wondering about the superior expedition canoe myself.  I emailed Scott and he sent me his phone number.  I talked to him about the differences between the expedition and the sea wind.

Both are a lot of money and it is hard to get a feel of which one I might like better off the internet and phone calls.

Guess I will just keep pondering on it for a while.
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kapakahino one better to call
Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 8:15:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

when you're on the grand river mid january and you run out of butterscotch schnapps, there is no one better to call then scott smith... paddled out in the dead of night sub zero temps to find us at deer camp island... he was elavated to hero status. with dan and mike smith out on the paddle, we picked on poor scotty for an hour or so for not bring enough "sweetner" and then he paddled off into the darkness.  next morning his expedition boat was up on the shore and i took a long hard look at it. its a decked canoe.

scott donated a sawyer for the verlen kruger memorial, very nice jester and a very nice guy.  but he will tell you, his superior built decked canoe is no kruger. he never claimed it to be. if you want a kruger buy a kruger, if you want something else,,, there are options out there.

his sawyer boats like the summersong and others, (he has the sawyer molds) are very nice... I have a 25 year old summersong, saw a build of his at the hugh heward... workmanship stellar; i love the summersong and almost had him build me another one, but how many summersongs does one guy need?

after seeing coffee dog paddle his blue barrel canoe in the mr340, I have a NEW  motto:  If it floats, paddle it, if it makes windward advantage, sail it.

5 out of 8 FC contenders speaks for itself... go kruger

Kap

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noseeumSuperior Expedition
Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 9:32:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

Prior to making my decision to order a Kruger Sea Wind, I checked out other expedition canoes including the Superior Expedition.  I did not speak with anybody at Superior.  Like you, I was more interested in reading what owners had to say about the vessel.  The problem was, reviews/testimonials were far and few between.  I've been following this forum for some time now and have come to realize that the died-in-the-wool Water Tribers (I'm not one) are darn good at what they do and are very conscientious about their equipment.  You've come to the right place to get feed-back.  If you don't get feed-back on a Superior Expedition from these folks, it's probably because nobody owns one.  To me, that speaks volumes.  Kruger canoe reviews/testimonials are abundant, not only on this forum but anywhere on the internet.  I have never come across a negative review of any of the Kruger canoes or the company.  Quite the contrary.  99.9% of them are very positive.  To me, that speaks volumes.  Yep, I gulped when I mailed my deposite for a Sea Wind but God willing, I intend to paddle it till I can't paddle no more.  With some experience I am confident that it will get me to where I want to go safely and comfortably.   Noseeum       

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ChrisOSuperior-Kruger comparison
Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 11:52:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

From my perspective, there are a number of things at play here that might need an alternate thought, or two... just for balance.

Looks like a Seawind: Yeah, from a long view, there are resemblances to that Kruger model. That, in and of itself, is not an indication that there should be a licensing fee to be paid for producing a knock-off. Scott can answer that directly and maybe even Mark, but visual similarities, alone, do not make for a rip-off. Every canoe out there is a rip-off in one way or another if general look and feel is the only criteria.

Limited customer reviews available: This is an age old problem that takes real work and usually, quite a bit of cash to get rolling and available to the Internet. I'll tell you from experience, that it isn't an easy task to do. Having limited reviews is not necessarily something that speaks volumes in my opinion. I know of dozens of truly great boats that have never gone beyond one or two examples as built.

Results showing a certain boat as successful: While this is good news for Mark and his efforts with the Kruger brand, it says nothing about the lack of performance, or quality regarding other competing boats. Further, without having other competitive boat types entered, it only says that the Krugers behaved as one would have hoped. This isn't a knock on Kruger build, or design. Nor is it a knock on any of the dedicated guys/gals who have taken them to the finish line. There simply haven't been that many boats of a similar type to form any conclusions as to brand efficacy when run head to head.

If this drawing of a conclusion based on limited entries were really effective, then one can quickly assume that there is no catamaran on the water as effective as a Tornado when entered in the EC. Toss that around in racing cat circles and you'll immediately get several hundred objections based on personal experience in head to head competition. The Tornado is a good boat, to be sure, but it's not the only boat capable of blistering down-course speeds with a crew of two. EC results wouldn't tell you that, though.

The always tough Archipelago RAID from Sweden to Finland, and back  http://www.archipelagoraid.com/index.php uses F18 cats exclusively. Once can only wonder as to why that choice was made when the bigger Tornado was, until recently, the Olympic Class catamaran.

Just my opinion, of course, but maybe we could give Scott a chance to show his boat, offer his side of things and understand that he's trying to get a canoe building enterprise rolling with the acquisition of the Sawyer tooling.

Chris Ostlind

Lunada Design

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GoneCrazyFollow up after speaking with Scott Smith
Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 7:51:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:
Thanks to everyone for there input.  I spoke to Scott this morning after he replied to my e-mail.  The boat is definitely different from the Seawind but made in a similar tradition.  The lay up is similar and  very robust.  The length is 7 inches longer, the cockpit is 3 inches longer, and the boat is 1.5 inches deeper.  The boat also has a finer entry than the sea wind.  Scott has only built 8 of these boats to date so it is a new canoe.  He told me about how Verlen had a chance to see his prototype before his passing and felt that it was a very promising design.  For those of you who don't know, Scott built boats with Verlen Kruger for 7 years.  Based on the conversation  I had with Scott I think that the expedition would be a great boat for a number of applications including water tribe races.  I have to say I'm thinking hard about ordering one.  Maybe I'll be able to provide some first hand information later this year.  Thanks again long live the Tribe!
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paddlingfan1I wrote the Superior Expedition Review
Thursday, February 18, 2010, 9:30:00 PM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

I wrote the Expedition Review in question. I would be more than happy to speak to anyone about the boat. I can be reached at 630-336-7401. Feel free to give me a call. Happy Paddling!

Sincerely,

Steve Retz

Streamwood, IL

 

Superior Expedition Review

Manufactured by Superior Sawyer Canoe Company

   

 

Submitted by Paddlingfan1  (Steve Retz)

2-11-09

 

I test paddled a Superior Expedition canoe 2-10-09 in Portland, Mi on the Grand River one day after the ice went out. A little background is needed. The Expedition is a high volume tripping boat following the concept of the Kruger Sea Wind. It’s a canoe you can bet your life on in the most extreme and adventurist trips. The builder, Scott Smith, worked for Verlen Kruger for 7 years and has built over 100 Kruger boats with Verlen. Scott put together all the strengths of the Sea Wind design and improved all the weaknesses in a larger package.  .

 

We did an upstream and back paddle on the Grand River which was high and flowing at a rate of 3 to 5 mph. At first sight my first impression of the Expedition was, “It’s huge”.  After a few strokes my next impression was, “How could a boat this

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ManitouCruiserlook-a-like
Friday, February 19, 2010, 10:34:00 AM
Category: General Comment  Keyword:

 I totally agree with what ChrisO has said so well!

Before we start reviewing canoes in a public forum we should take them out and use them as they are intended to be used.

Verlen spent 40 years building 41 prototypes and testing those prototypes out with over 100,000 miles of use.  I'm no canoe designer, never claimed to be, but I am a paddler and I know from experience that the work Verlen put into his design was well thought out and every change he made had a purpose. Verlen was happy with the Sea Wind and stopped designing new hulls when he arrived at it. For me that is enough, I'm going paddling! 

We have the perfect testing grounds with the WaterTribe Challenges and the Kruger events in Michigan, bring them out, let's test them. 

It is nice to see another canoe that incorporates some, if not all, of the comfortable features Verlen found and used in his designs. I can't believe it has taken this long for someone to copy these ideas. Just think what a wonderful world this would be if every canoe could be as comfy as a Kruger!

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